Your opinions on these GSD breeders?

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Comments

  • Evelyn CummingsEvelyn Cummings Posts: 11,879Member
    edited 6 December, 2011
    Mulder, as you probably know, I got my start in dogs working for a GSD breeder back in the late 60's early 70's, and MY breed for 40 years was the labrador retriever, however I have always had a GSD up until the last 6 years or so when old age made it difficult to keep up with both GSD's and Labs. You are spot on with your posts here... what ultimately defines ANY breed is their purpose and history. It is up to us to act as guardians for this history and do our utmost to breed to the original standards thereby keeping the temperament nuances and other "parts" that make any breed a breed defined. It actually makes me cringe to read about breeders like this and hear people defending them. Fortunately, in the long run, there will remain breeders true to the original standards. My first breed mentor taught me well. Her statement was "the fads come and go, breed to the standard and you will always be right." Hopefully, these color and soft fads will go and leave a true GSD that even us old timers can be proud to look at and know. As for the lab with the seniors... not only is that their fault for selecting that pup, it is the breeders fault for selling it to them, IMO. IMO you do not change a breed to suit your home, you change BREEDS to suit your home. There are plenty of different breeds with different traits for different lifestyles.
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 6 December, 2011
    Seeing as you are all so passionate about reserving the traditional coat colours and such why don't you email Kim herself? I'm sure she'll have a better explanation than me. I repeat, I'm sixteen, I love German Shepherds and as long as they're happy healthy hounds I'm not complaining. But I lack experience obviously, I intend to learn more. After all I've got a recessive gene to, being red headed and all that I understand what it's like to be frowned upon. :))
  • edited 6 December, 2011
    It's not just about the coat color.. as other posts have said.. if the dog is otherwise phenomenal, there's no reason realistically to discount it based on coat color alone especially when the founder himself had said that color is not important. the problem is that there doesn't seem to be anything otherwise particularly excellent about the breeder.. do the dogs have otherwise excellent structure? excellent temperament, drives, ability? the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much happening here 'except' creating dogs with alternate colors.
  • Evelyn CummingsEvelyn Cummings Posts: 11,879Member
    edited 6 December, 2011
    Bear, I am a red-head, too, but fortunately (or unfortunately???) there is no written breed standard for us humans, BOL!
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 6 December, 2011
    Yes. As I said previously Kim does not put the colour of her dogs before the health and temperament. Health comes first, she displays BVA Hip and Elbow Scores on the page dedicated to the dog at stud. When you purchase the puppy you get vet signed health checks from both mother and father. All dogs have perked ears, straight backs and proportioned hips! You're obviously allowed to meet the parents of your puppy, and I must say True is gorgeous (-: She has a child, a poodle, she live's in the countryside, they're picked up every day, socialised, in the house, people visit every so often when they're older, in the garden which adjust's them to everyday life and obviously make's them confident happy puppies. And yes, ahaha it was a little joke. But some people like to pick on red headed people. I didn't mean to offend. :))
  • Lee WLee W Posts: 2,593Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    As I stated earlier I am happy that at sixteen you have managed to get an apparently healthy dog from a person who is in essence a BYB. I don't know what Shadow was bred from and frankly I don't care. I know Sabi came from a BYB and I don't care. No one is knocking your dog. We are all saying the same thing, in order for this to be a good breeder she would need to be contributing something to the breed and she isn't. I hate showing, can't stand it. So when I needed to title dogs I stuck with obedience. By taking only part of these incredible animals, she is doing a disservice to a truly remarkable breed. I can also tell you that Sabi is a working dog, she is only recently retired and she is my pet, sleeping on the bed and all.
  • louise nichollouise nichol Posts: 74,667Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    Woah, old thread of mine! :)) Just took another peak at Icemead and i have to say, again, i still find her dogs physically stunning to look at. But i agree with the rest of what is being said here. You say Bear, that Icemead do not breed for colour alone, but yet that is what her kennel represents. There is no mention of anything that they do with their dogs. They ultimately breed healthy, faulted GSDs for the people who are ( sorry to say ) wanting a "rare" coloured dog to show off down the park. Also, i think True was one of the dogs on the Rushlands website that i had an issue with how many litters she's had. I can't be sure now because the Rushlands website is not updated but i know they had many dogs that had bred very young. Do you know how many litters True has had Bear?
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    The website is very misleading I have to agree, Kim stuck a picture of Chester on her front page, a physically stunning dog and a half relation to Bear but the attraction does go on the colour of the coat and IT IS wrong. But because I've met her in person I'm convinced she is not all for colour. Bow; the first imported liver German Shepherd of Standard coat in the UK raised a lot of controversy and Kim openly admits this on his page. Yet she also say's " However it is fair to say that some unscruplious breeders will no doubt charge over the odds and advertise them as rare, so don't fall for it, don't pay it and make sure the parents are hip scored.!" Her intentions are to add diversity into the breed with the liver coats. But one stud dog isn't going to change a breed, Chester has just sired some pups and they all came out black and tan. When I first saw Chester I stood in awe at how stunning he was and even though he is labelled faulted in others eye's I just didn't see him as looking 'misleading' or 'wrong'. He is a German Shepherd, just not of traditional colour. She is not breeding them for show, unlike some American lines who prefer that agonising looking curved spine. They have the physic and form of a German Shepherd dog, no distorted features, curved backs or floppy ears! However there is the exception of Chester who is 29inch at the shoulder which is way out of breed size standard but he is truly the exception because True and Wiccan are to breed size. Like I said if you want to actually sort something out here, drop Kim an email and express your concerns. She'll probably be more than happy to explain herself. And True has had five litters I think? Bear being one of her last. I'll have to email Kim to make sure. But True is retired now at six years old . (-:
  • Jess DalyJess Daly Hunter ValleyPosts: 793Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    That's some pretty fluent wording for a sixteen year old... Also the Dam she mentioned is listed as being "RETIRED". This breed was bred for a purpose & should be true to that purpose weather it be the original herding work, police work, guarding or otherwise. If you want a low drive dog get a lap dog or a working dog rescue that has a low drive. Plenty of working breed dogs are in rescue due to no or little drive or stock sense.
  • Jess DalyJess Daly Hunter ValleyPosts: 793Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    One of the dogs was a year and a half old when first bred - that's not enough time for her joints to fully grow & settle is it? Her first litter was ten puppies which is a big litter. Her second litter a year later was SIXTEEN puppies. The dog died when she was less than three years old. http://www.icemead.co.uk/#/in-memory-of-thistle/4513109855
  • edited 7 December, 2011
    Not meaning to be antagonistic, but if a breeder has to "explain herself" then she is not the breeder for me. The fact that True has had so many litters is disturbing...retired at 6? When was her first breeding? If she had her first at 2, then that is 2 litters a year..a lot for any dog. If she started younger & had one litter per year, then the health testing would not be as accurate.
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    I'll take that as a compliment. I like to appear well spoken in these sort of situations, because of my age some people think I'm just a stubborn little girl who's completely clueless. I didn't literally mean 'explain herself' as if she's doing bad. But I know she's open to criticism and I'm sure she's more than happy to get a discussion going about this. She never mentioned Thistle or the cause of death. I didn't want to ask, not my burden to bare. Of course if this was the case and she produced big litters then I'm not surprised she died so early. However the amount of pups in a litter cannot be helped. How come you know this? Did she say? Because that is wrong if at that age her joints weren't fully developed. The litter Bear was from was a litter of 14 and I think one of True's previous litters where 5 and she's in perfect health. As I said about True I don't know exactly until I ask so let's not talk about something that might not even be true.
  • louise nichollouise nichol Posts: 74,667Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    It appears that they tend to have a litter every year from the same ****. They over use their dogs IMO. As well as Thistle dying at just 3 years old, they also had a male die at just a year old. Would be interesting to know the cause of death.
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    Please don't expect me to ask Kim how Steel and Thistle died. I get upset just thinking about how my last Shepherd had to get put to sleep, I wouldn't want to upset her. :( But if your concern overwhelms you then you can go ahead and ask. "Shy biarns get nout."
  • OnyxOnyx Posts: 3,322Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    How is it inappropriate to ask a breeder how their breeding dogs died? That's exactly the kind of thing I would want to know especially if that dog, or even its relatives, were in my dog's lineage. Even if I didn't think it was any fault of the breeder's that the dog passed, I would want to know what issues could possibly be in my dog's future. A breeder who wouldn't disclose how their dog(s) died would be a huge red flag to me.
  • louise nichollouise nichol Posts: 74,667Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    Just did a little digging on other forums and via the KC's Mate Select tool and found the following - Bow, the imported Liver male with a total hip score of 37! has sired 39 puppies from 5 litters. Only 5 of his progeny have been hip scored with results ranging from 10 to 40. Why they're or was breeding from a dog with such a high hip score is beyond me? Chester, the rather lovely looking long coated Liver dog has a below average hip score of 14 but none of his siblings are to be found in the data base. His dam had an above average hip score of 24. I can't find any of their other dogs in the data base. Although they did match the high scoring dogs with low scoring dogs in the breedings they're still taking huge risks in using such high scoring dogs IMO. At least Bow is now retired which is something i guess. Hope his high scoring offspring are not used in the future!
  • Emily ThorntonEmily Thornton Posts: 12Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    I doubt Steel was a breeding dog at the age he was, which was just under one year. Thistle yes was obviously a breeding dog but I find it inappropriate to mention her death out of the blue just so other people can find out. If you have real concerns about the deaths of these dogs then go ahead and ask, but be sure to mention the concerns. It's inappropriate for me to ask because I don't have any. Bow's hip score is really high and she took a massive risk with him! :( I'm glad he's retired too because of that reason. His pups aren't very old at all, but she'll most defiantly be registering them all. :)
  • OnyxOnyx Posts: 3,322Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    I don't expect you to ask her anything just to satiate the curiosity of this thread. If I personally was considering a pup from her, I would want to know what health issues in her lines are causing her dogs to die at such young ages. If she was unwilling to say, I wouldn't buy from her. Just my personal opinion which would apply to any breeder, not just this one.
  • Mary HigdemMary Higdem Posts: 28Member
    edited 7 December, 2011
    Breeders of purebred animals are responsible for the quality of future generations of their respective breed. The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well-muscled animal, alert and full of life and well balanced, The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. A breeder should always breed for Health, Temperament, and Intelligence. Breeding Blues, Livers, and Panda German Shepherds in my opinion are not good breeders. Mary and Spirit http://freedomkennels.virtualave.net/
  • Anne KazandjianAnne Kazandjian Posts: 1Member
    edited 18 February, 2012
    I am interested in the comments about Rushlands. I have a dog that was a litter mate of Thistle. From a dog owner's point of view, I was disappointed in Rushlands in that soon after we took our dog home, they became more or less out of contact and it took months for them to register the litter too. Their website has been 'under construction' for the last 7 years! Although we have a lovely dog, I wouldnt actively look for a Rushlands GSD in future.
  • NatalieNatalie Posts: 1Member
    Hi, I’ve came across this thread whilst researching my dogs background. I have a dog from Bow who is now 11 years old. Icemead have totally disappeared off the face of the earth & this is no surprise to me after the problems that my dog has. After doing some digging I’ve found out that my paperwork is fake & a lot of the pups that have came from their litters have died, Icemead have bred unhealthy dogs just for the money it seems. I have copies of Bow & Fallon’s hip scores & although on the paperwork & on kennel club it says she scores 14, the bottom 6 boxes are covered with all huge number 2 which actually makes her hipscore 38, we were told our dog had been hip scored but I’ve since found out that was a lie as he was 2 months old & can’t be scored at that age, I have never used my dog for breeding & it seems that Icemead have stopped which is something to be thankful for.
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